Why Hard Conversations in Marriage Go Sideways

Episode Summary
Most hard conversations don't go sideways because of what was said. They go sideways about ten to twenty seconds before it, when something gets triggered and your body quietly shifts into self-protection.

For a lot of couples, it isn't the conversations where you came in swinging. It's the ones you entered with good intentions, even expecting to be on the same page, and somewhere in the middle the whole thing turned. From that moment on you're not really hearing each other. You're managing a threat, and the next thing you say comes from a compromised place.

In this episode, Chad and Sarah-Gayle get honest about why this happens, the four ways we tend to protect ourselves, fight, flight, freeze, and fawn, and the simple, practical steps that move a couple out of self-preservation and back to being teammates.

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Full Blog Post: Why Hard Conversations in Marriage Go Sideways

The hijack happens before the words. We tend to replay what was said, but the conversation usually got compromised ten to twenty seconds earlier when a trigger fired. After that, you're reacting to a feeling, not really hearing your spouse.
Fight, flight, freeze, and fawn are all the same move. They're four different strategies for one job, protecting yourself. Fight confronts the threat, flight escapes it, freeze stalls it out, and fawn appeases it (often through people pleasing, which quietly breeds resentment).

Self-protection competes with connection. Marriage thrives on vulnerability and courage. If you feel the need to protect yourself, that need is working directly against your ability to be vulnerable. You can win the argument and lose the connection.

You don't have to keep a conversation just because it turned. If your aim in the moment isn't connection, pausing is the wise move, not avoidance. Just because a conversation turns doesn't mean you have to keep having it right then.

A peace pause buys you twenty to thirty seconds. When you feel yourself getting flooded (for Chad, the tell is his volume going up), take a short pause, breathe, and ask yourself: if we're on the same team, how would a kind person approach this right now?

A pre-agreed timeout resets a flooded moment. Agree ahead of time on a word that means we're taking a break. Make the break at least thirty minutes, and use it to actually self-soothe (breathe, pray, listen to something that fills you up), not to disappear or to win.

Proverbs 18:21 is your readiness test. Life and death are in the power of the tongue. If you head back into the conversation and your words are still bent toward blame and criticism, you're not ready yet. When you can return with life-giving words and a same-team heart, you're ready.

A game plan beats good intentions. Championship teams don't make their biggest decisions spontaneously. They plan, they focus, and they take one thing at a time. Decide how you'll handle hard conversations before you're in them, and stay willing to pivot. You're not broken. You're wise.

Celebrate the baby steps. Going from a two to a four out of ten is real growth. Celebrating it keeps you both wanting to keep working. Beating each other up over the missing six lands you right back on separate teams.

Your Next Step

One small thing this week. When you're both calm and not in the middle of anything tense, agree on your timeout word and what it will mean. Decide how long the break is, and what each of you will do during it to come back calmer rather than just distracted. That one agreement will change how your next hard conversation goes.

And if you want a coach in your corner, we offer a free 30-minute consultation. We'll ask a few questions, get a clear picture of where you are, and help you put together a plan to move forward as a team.
We're cheering you on.

Episode Themes

• The trigger that hijacks a conversation before the words
• Fight, flight, freeze, and fawn as self-protection
• Why self-protection competes with vulnerability and connection
• You don't have to finish a conversation just because it turned
• The peace pause and the pre-agreed timeout
• Self-soothing and knowing when you're ready to return
• The game plan and a same-team mindset
• Celebrating baby steps over chasing perfection
• Scripture: Proverbs 18:21; James 1:19; Proverbs 15:1

Reflection Questions
For Personal Reflection

1. When a conversation gets tense, which do I default to first: fight, flight, freeze, or fawn?
2. What's the tell that lets me know I'm getting flooded (volume, tone, going quiet, shutting down)?
3. Where did I first learn to protect myself like this, and is it still serving our marriage?
4. Am I genuinely self-soothing during a break, or just distracting myself until it passes?

For Conversation with Your Spouse

1. What should our timeout word be, and what will it mean when one of us calls it?
2. When you get flooded, what do you most want me to understand about what's happening for you?
3. What time and place tend to be best for us to have hard conversations?
4. What's one baby step of growth from the last month that we can celebrate together?

Transcript

Chad (00:00)
In today's podcast, we want to look at why do hard conversations often go sideways? And I know for us and in a lot of the couples that we coach, sometimes we go back to the details of what was said. But in our experience, there's actually something that happens maybe 10 to 20 seconds before that, that is kind of the beginning of hijacking a conversation. So in your experience, what does that look like or what are your thoughts there?

Sarah-Gayle (00:24)
we hear this all the time with our couples where it's like we were just talking about something regular and then all of a sudden it just turned. just because a conversation turns doesn't mean we have to keep having it. And we'll talk more about that later. for us, I know our I guess I'll speak for myself, and that's something we teach take personal responsibility. Speak for yourself, let your partner speak for themselves. So for me, what happens is, something might be said and

I'm fine, but then as we continue talking, maybe I'm triggered. So there's there's a trigger and then that is what my mind is focused on moving forward. So honestly, I don't know that I really hear, at least through a clear lens, what Chad is saying after that trigger because I'm caught up in my feelings at that point.

Chad (01:08)
And so part of what we want to explore in this conversation is this idea of what is happening in our bodies. Because oftentimes for Sarah Gail and I and a lot of the couples we coach, we can enter a conversation with pretty good intentions. Yeah. Right? Like I'm not talking about the conversations where we come in hot to just destroy each other out the gate. Like just the solution to that is stop it. Just stop doing that. Right. I'm talking about the conversations where one or both of us enter it with good intentions and maybe even just like,

An expectation that we're on the same page and they get away from us. And so the reality is something happens physically and emotionally that oftentimes then the next thing that we say or do is I'm gonna almost use this word compromised. It's like I am no longer operating from the space of a teammate and a partner, but I've actually shifted into self-preservation. And so many of us, maybe we've heard of this idea of fight or flight.

And over the years, over the decades of studies, they've kind of added some new ideas. So it's fight, flight, freeze, or fawn. And we're gonna kind of look at these. And the goal here isn't to dive into the details as much as to create awareness. What is some of your pattern? Because our end goal here is to get back to the space where we're teammates, where we're partners, right? Scripture talks about this idea of a husband and a wife being one. Well,

For me, my thing is I first flight and I start to retreat. And if that doesn't work, I fight and I attack. And so either one of those, I'm separating us. And so we want to continue to explore that. But like what does that look like for you? What is for you when you think of those? What happens? What are you experiencing and how does it show up?

Sarah-Gayle (02:54)
I want to clarify also, ⁓ when we're saying fight, we're not talking about anything physical or it's like this isn't fight club, right? So we want you to be safe if you're listening. Abuse is is not something to be tolerated and work through. Let's get get out, get safe, get outside help.

Chad (03:10)
It's amazing how often we have to clarify and distinguish.

Sarah-Gayle (03:13)
I

know, and I clarify that with my couples too, when they're like, Yeah, you know, and then we just beat each other up and I'm wait, wait, wait, wait, what do you mean by that? Okay. So back to the question. out of those four words you used, I think what I would typically do in these tense moments, would be to fight to an extent as far as just trying to protect myself to talk back, to defend, if you will, but then also to freeze, to think

you know, well maybe this will pass. So it's a weird dynamic because I will try and fight

But then when I recognize, okay, your fighting isn't working, Sarah Gale, that's when I freeze and I know that there's a lot that I want to be said, but I just don't say it because I feel like nothing's gonna get through,

Chad (03:54)
I wanna maybe just read here some high level context for couples. And so I think the big thing is recognizing, regardless of how you respond or how your spouse responds, there are different strategies, oftentimes for the same thing. And that is individually, something happened where we now feel the need to protect ourselves. How we protect ourselves may express itself differently.

And so if we do the fight, it's to confront it or to push back against the threat. So the idea there is the best way to protect myself is to attack the threat or whatever I'm perceiving is the threat. If my default is to is flight, then it's to escape the threat. So I'm gonna withdraw. I want to protect myself by simply ⁓ escaping the threat. ⁓ Freeze is basically to stall it out. It's almost like a deer in headlights, right? You just pause and you're just hoping.

Hoping, whatever this perceived threat is, that it'll just go away with time. It's like if I stick my head in the sand, when I take my head out, it'll go away.

Sarah-Gayle (04:55)
Real

quick, it reminds me of our boys. Like sometimes I'll go in their room and they don't want to interact with me. I don't know why, but they don't want to interact with their mama and they'll just cover their eyes and they'll be in their chair and they'll just cover their eyes. And I'm like, I can see you. So that's like free.

Chad (05:09)
I'm still hate. And then

the fourth one is this idea of fawn. And this is kind of one of the newer ideas, but it's simply to appease it. So this is for a lot of us that may struggle with people pleasing. people pleasing could be an expression of that. Like we're trying to create safety by making sure, like if I feel threatened by you, if I people please you and make you happy, then maybe the threat will go away.

Sarah-Gayle (05:33)
And deep down it just creates resentment because you're not being true to yourself and after the fact it just doesn't feel good. it backfires.

Chad (05:40)
So, what

we want to talk about here is hopefully you can do some personal inventory. But the goal is how do we get back out of this self-preservation, back into a teammate? One of the things that you and I talk about together and with other couples is marriages thrive off of vulnerability and courage. But if I feel the need to protect myself, that is directly competing against my ability to be vulnerable. And so there's an element, there's some skills, there's some

steps that we can take as a team to get back to important conversations so that we can move forward. And so I'm curious for you, like what has worked for you or what has worked for some of your couples? If they're able to recognize that response, how do they get out of it and get back to the table in a place where they can be courageous and vulnerable?

Sarah-Gayle (06:30)
Yeah, I think it starts with this awareness, just this conversation we're having where it's recognizing, yeah, we have some things internally. When we get triggered, this is how we typically react and respond. So it's identifying what is it that you do typically? Do you do you fight, do you flight, do you fawn, do you freeze? And then when you're in that kind of conversation, it's acting accordingly. It's like, I know I do this, so as a result, because I know I do this, I'm gonna choose to do something different.

one thing to be aware of is we protect ourselves for a reason, Sometimes that reason comes from our upbringing where we just are perpetuating what we saw and what we did growing up. Sometimes it's because we've had interactions with our current partner where it's like, ⁓ trust was broken or whatever it may be.

So we put this wall up, and what I tell my couples is we get it, we understand why there's the wall, but the wall is not going to get you that deeper intimacy and connection that you ultimately want, it's not gonna get you the dream, we think, well, this is just how I'm going to exist, I'm not gonna let them in too much. But marriage is vulnerable

it requires walking by faith. You don't know how that conversation is going to go necessarily, right? But it's walking by faith and choosing to be vulnerable at the hopes that you guys will be able to connect and continue to move forward as you're growing in these areas.

Chad (07:51)
I think for me, when I think about what do I do to try and get back is recognizing my tendency and when I'm in the fight mode, I will use my words or my intellect to win the argument. The challenge is I can win the argument, but erode connection. Yeah. Right. And so the threat is whatever idea you put on the table that maybe makes me the culprit or the villain. Yeah. I'm like, let me attack that idea so that that idea

isn't credible. And so for me, it's just recognizing, well, what is that? And then one of the things that we talk about in different capacities is these elements to create timeouts. And so I think in a different podcast we talked about the peace pause. Right. And so sometimes to get out of this emotionally flooded state, we may just need a 20 or 30 second pause. Yeah. Where it's like, okay, I'm feeling right, whatever I'm recognizing, for me, my volume goes up.

Right? And so if my volume goes up, then that typically means there's a sense of agitation or frustration. And so a practical thing for me can be to take that 20 or 30 second peace pause where it's like, okay, let me breathe and let me recognize the path I'm going down.

And then it's reminding myself that communication's about connection and we're on the same team. And so one of the practical questions that I think I try and ask myself is if communication is about connection and we're on the same team, how would a person approach this topic? Yeah. And if there's a big gap between how a person would approach this topic under that context and how I'm approaching it, well, I need to come in alignment. Yeah. Right? Yeah. And so that's kind of a practice.

practical thing. But there's times where twenty or thirty seconds might not be good enough. what do you recommend other couples do in that context?

Sarah-Gayle (09:41)
we have a pre agreement.

recognizing that, if that happens where one of us and we take personal responsibility where one of us is feeling just over the top and we've kind of lost sight of the whole conversation. We just are seeing red, if you will, then we call what's called a timeout. And you could have a different name for it. Some couples, I had one couple who said, ⁓ we wanna we want to call it a Milwaukee because that made them laugh, you know, for their inside joke. So whether it's a timeout or a different word, you call that and you've already pre-agreed what that means.

Basically, that it means 45 second break and then come back, or if you guys have established some other guidelines, then you make sure you follow those guidelines. And the whole point is when you make the pause, that in that 45 did I say 45 seconds earlier? 45 minutes. I might have said seconds, but in that 45 minutes, I think the minimum would be like 30 minutes because the whole point is we want to physiologically self soothe, we want to come back to a place of calm, and so that break we take isn't like

let me go finish my favorite show. It's let me let me calm myself down. Let me breathe. Let me pray. Let me listen to something positive. Let me look at my affirmations I've written. Remember what we're trying to build in the marriage and not just winning the moment. And so you can take that longer time out as well. That would be incredibly helpful.

Chad (11:01)
a question that a lot of couples ask me is how do we know we're ready to return? And one of the things that I share is when you're ready to re-engage in the conversation with your spouse, focused on being on the same team. Right? I think about Proverbs 18, verse 21. It says, Life and death is in the power of the tongue. I know for me, part of my pattern, when I'm in the fight or flight, my tongue turns to death. Right? I'm blaming, I'm criticizing, I'm accusing, I'm defending. And so

If I'm going back into this conversation version two around two, and my words are still in alignment with death, it means I'm not ready. Yeah. Right? I'm still flooded and still in that self-preservation. And so on a really practical level, if you're ready to reapproach your spouse and reapproach that conversation with a renewed commitment to teamwork and life-giving words, then you're ready. If you're not, then you're not. And so a huge part of what we see for couples is

We're having too many important conversations in a fight or flight environment. Yeah. And they have really no chance of being successful because we're operating as individuals protecting ourselves. And that's gonna bring out the worst in us. What are your thoughts for couples or what did you want to say based on the

Sarah-Gayle (12:18)
this is what we were saying earlier where sometimes the conversation just turns and we don't have to have the conversation during that time. For some reason we just think, when we're talking, we just have to finish talking. It's like, no, if it's not about connection, if my aim isn't to connect with him, then I don't need to be talking in that moment because it's probably gonna be more selfish and it's probably fueled by emotion. I go as far sometimes to tell couples, Hey, when you are fueled by emotion, don't engage. Don't engage because

Usually with emotion, we let have it. It's critical. It's how we're feeling. Feelings are fantastic. They're God given. But they help pinpoint for us where are we? What are we wanting? What would we like to grow in? All they help us to know how we're feeling self-reflection is required for us because a lot of us don't even give ourselves the time to even think beforehand. It's like, how am I doing really? Why do

Did that trigger me? What's going on? And if we don't have those times of self-reflection, then it's easy to kind of blame the other person. They made me feel this way. And then when we blame the other person, we never get an opportunity to grow and do the deeper healing that we need to do so that we can show up better in the relationship and just for ourselves,

Chad (13:32)
Yeah, that's really good. I think there's a couple I I'm gonna oversimplify, but it's this idea of skills. There are some core skills individually and as a team that when we're building these skills over time, we are actually equipped to have those hard conversations in a way that we remain teammates and partners working together. And so I think one of the first skills is personal responsibility of am I able to even identify when I

Feel threatened, how do I respond? Yeah, right. Like once I do that, I can understand, well, how do I get out of that? Right? And then the next skill becomes well, how do I self-sooth? How do I calm myself in a way that I can return to my spouse in a way where I'm life-giving? Yeah. Right. And then I think collectively as a team is recognizing, well, what are the environments where both of us feel safe? Yeah. Because if vulnerability is required, well, we need to feel safe. Yeah. If we if neither one of us feels

feel safe, then like vulnerability is gonna be really tough to accomplish as a team. Are there any other kind of like core skills or mindsets that come to mind for you?

Sarah-Gayle (14:42)
Yeah, I realize I kinda lost

focus when I was speaking earlier because what I was going to say is the game plan. And feel like we've talked about this at different times. If if that's unfamiliar to you, it's this plan to talk and discuss ahead of time how you will handle when sensitive conversations occur and you kind of get in these moments and even before you get in these moments. And so the thing that I've kept saying but I haven't completed the thought is we don't have to have hard conversations as they just shift into being a hard conversation. That's good.

We can pause it, and the game plan helps us to think through ahead of time, okay, what are we going to do? So then when someone recognizes for themselves, this isn't the kind of conversation I wanted to have while we're out having ice cream. Someone realizes that for themselves, then when they say, Hey, can we have a timeout on this conversation and come back to it after dinner? Then the other person doesn't feel like they're just being minimized or the issues being avoided. Because you would have already talked about that beforehand, that you know, this is

typically the best time when we have hard conversations. This is typically the best place. You know, this is how we have these hard conversations. So it's going through and coming into agreement with each other on the plan for these conversations ahead of time.

Chad (15:59)
one of the things I love, so many of the couples that we get to work with come from a competitive background like us, right? Maybe they played sports at a high level, or they're ministry leaders or business owners. And so what I love is to kind of shift out of the marital space and look at well, what do championship teams and other spaces do? Right? Championship businesses or teams, they have plans. They don't just spontaneously make key decisions, they have structure, they

Have vision, they have a level of discipline. Yeah. Right. To so that they show up to a game or to a meeting, they already have established like what are we trying to accomplish? Yeah. And it doesn't mean that other things aren't important. It's simply recognizing that championship teams recognize that focus creates clarity and allows people to operate as a team. And so that's one of the biggest things I think the game plan supports us on these hard conversations is: hey, there may be multiple.

topics and let's take one at a time because championship teams work through one thing at a time. It doesn't mean the other things aren't important. It simply means hey we want the fruit of championship level team. So we gotta start acting like a championship level team.

Sarah-Gayle (17:16)
Yeah, and the last thing I'll say on this is the willingness to pivot if necessary. Because let's go with this metaphor, championship team. If you're playing a team and they come out with some random play that you didn't quite prep for, you didn't see it on the film, you're not just going to bow out. you're going to adjust. You're going to pivot. one thing that I tell my couples is, you have what it takes. You're not broken. You're in marriage coaching, counseling because you're wise. You recognize that we have a business.

Coach, we have a nutritionist, we have a marriage coach, because of that, you can take what we're saying, and you can put a plan in place and then you operate in the plan, it doesn't work, okay. It doesn't mean, ⁓ this is not working, we're doomed. It just means, ⁓ this part didn't work for us, so we're gonna try this. We're gonna try that. As long as you're willing to recognize you are on the same team, and that's a mentality, that's a mindset. When you recognize that,

Then you can pivot and you can adjust as you try things and they're not working. It's not devastating. It's just a part of the process, like we know with anything else. But I think what we started this podcast talking about is a lot of times we find ourselves on different sides. And when we're on different sides, pivoting and adjusting feels like a betrayal because it's like, wait a minute, we just said blah, blah, blah. And that's also when we start to weaponize tools and the things that we're learning because we're on.

Different teams, but the whole world opens up when you recognize that mindset. We're on the same team, we can adjust, we will get this. Yeah.

Chad (18:47)
And one of the things that came to mind as you were sharing that because I I love that that commitment to stay on the same team. Yeah. Right. And I think one of the things that helps us do that is celebrating. Celebrating baby steps. Yeah. You know, so often couples reach out and let's say their current skill level is a two out of a ten. Right? And they've moved up to a four out of a ten. Yeah. Like let's be honest, a four is still probably not very good. There's still probably some pain and some frustration and some disappointment.

that they're experiencing but

My encouragement is celebrate that growth from the two to the four. Yeah. Because now it makes it so everybody on the team wants to keep working and learning and growing. Whereas, man, if we went from a two to a four and all you're beating me up for is the six that's missing, I'm gonna find myself getting right back into that fight or flight, right back on separate teams. Yeah. And so I think one of the things in marriage is in theory, we're playing this game the rest of our life. And so sometimes we want to put that in context, right?

We've been married, you know, two decades, right? We're working on our third decade together. We, Lord willing, have several more decades together. And so as long as we're growing, we're in a great spot. Yeah. And it may take us some time to get to where we want to be, but I think the focus is continuing to take those steps, even if they feel small.

Sarah-Gayle (20:11)
I love how you recap. You're so good at recapping because I know that I kind of take us all over the place. And not to put you on the spot, but if you were to say, you know, these are the things we want you to take from this episode, what would you tell the people?

Chad (20:25)
I think the biggest thing is recognizing why do hard conversations get away from you. And oftentimes it's because we find ourselves emotionally flooded, which puts us in a fight, flight, freeze, or fawn space, right? These are different ways that we react, but we're having to protect.

Learn those, identify, take personal responsibility, right? That'd be the first thing. The second thing is learn how to self-soothe and then return as teammates, as partners. And so we work with couples all the time, coaching them through this process. And so if you're looking for a coach to come alongside you and your spouse, reach out. We would love to have a consultation. We have a free 30-minute consultation where we can just ask questions and get a better understanding of where you are, and then put together a plan to help you move.

Move forward as a team.

Sarah-Gayle (21:17)
the fact that you're listening to this, you're doing better than you think you are. You're ahead of the game, You could be doing anything, but you're listening to this. It shows that you care about your relationship. So well done. And as always, we are cheering you on.